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    Forum » Harry Potter » The Books - Character Analyses » Severus Snape
    Severus Snape
    sailorlumDate: Friday, 2014-01-31, 05:21 | Message # 1
    First Year
    Group: Students
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    Study Questions from CoS
  • After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?
  • Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?
  • To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
  • Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
  • Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
  • How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best
    friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to
    maintain the friendship?
  • How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
  • Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the
    series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
  • How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
  • Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
  • Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
  • Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
  • What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
  • If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
  • What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

    Other study questions (mostly less serious)
    • Aside from DADA and Potions, what do you think Snape's favorite subject(s) are/were?
    • Does Snape have a favorite animal, and if so what is it?
    • Do you prefer Snape with a beard or without?
    • If Snape ever listens to Muggle music, what do you think his favorite band(s) or style(s) of music is/would be?
    • If Snape every watches movies, what do you think his favorite movie(s) or genre(s) are/would be?
    • If Snape ever watches TV, what do you think his favorite show(s) or genre(s) are/would be?
    • If Snape ever reads Muggle fiction books, what do you think his favorite book(s), author(s) or genre(s) are/would be?
    • If Snape ever plays Muggle video games and/or pinball, what do you think his favorite one(s) or genre(s) are?
    • Can Snape swim? Does/would he like it at all? What kind of bathing suit does he choose?
    • If Snape were on a plane, how would he react/what would he think of air travel?
    • Can Snape drive a car? Does/would he like it at all? What kind of car would he choose?
    • If you had to pick an actor to play Snape, who isn't Alan Rickman, who would you pick?
    • If Snape played Monopoly, what token would he pick?
    • What do you think Snape's Animagus would be?
  •  
    NotMyDaughterDate: Friday, 2014-01-31, 06:41 | Message # 2
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    Good, good questions to open up what I hope will be some complex and interesting conversation on who I know to be a very complex and interesting character!  :) My answers to some of them (Gotta go to bed soonish, so I'll take a look at more of them tomorrow):

    Quote sailorlum ()
    Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
    I don't know that there's much of a big reason why he was reluctant to approach her; he was a ten-year-old kid with a puppydog crush, and since when have people that young known how to act on their crushes from afar? Either they bully the object of their affection or they admire them from afar while being too scared to ever say or do a thing about it -- Add to that the fact that he was presumably an unpopular kid in the neighborhood -- Petunia addresses him as "that Snape boy!" and considers his home a poor one, so he had at least some reputation as a social outcast, and of course a mismatched wardrobe consisting of too-large coats and smocklike shirts makes him ripe for playground bullying; Lily, meanwhile, was consistently adored by peers and teachers alike later in life, so I can imagine her childhood was the same way. Snape's reluctance to approach her seems to me to just be a ten-year-old, unattractive social outcast acting the way you'd expect a ten-year-old, unattractive social outcast to act around a pretty, popular ten-year-old girl he had a crush on.

    Now, that second question, there's an interesting one I haven't thought about -- but I'm gonna have to say no. I think it is a safe bet that young Sev didn't know any other young witches or wizards running around while he was growing up, so Lily openly practicing this magic meant that for the first time he was not alone in his magical abilities, and I have to imagine, now that I think about it, that that was what drew him to her initially. Looking at Prince's Tale, the very first time he ever interacts with Lily is to jump out and tell her he understands what she's doing. His very first line of dialogue to her is immediately followed with "Snape could no longer contain himself" -- could no longer contain his excitement at seeing someone else who had this trait that he had been totally alone in. He was chomping at the bit to tell her all about magic so that he could finally have a peer who shared that with him. Her magical ability, I think, is almost certainly what made Lily the object of Severus's desire.

    Quote sailorlum ()
    Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
    Absolutely not. He had no reason to. When Snape is talking to Albus in Prince's Tale, the latter verbally traps him into admitting that he doesn't care about the death of anyone besides Lily. James and Harry could have died and Snape wouldn't have cared at all as long as Lily came out of it okay -- he jumped ship solely due to his love for her and nothing else. Were Lily's life not a factor in the equation, I can't imagine what reason Snape would ever have had to switch sides. Over a decade and a half later he still mentions protecting Harry for Lily. Keeping Lily alive and honoring her life after her death were all Snape cared about.

    Quote sailorlum ()
    After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?
    As responsible as anyone can be without actually being the one who killed them. Voldemort doesn't go after them without Snape's intel. Would James and Lily have died eventually at the hands of Voldemort or any other Death Eater? Maybe, maybe not, it's impossible to say -- but that has no bearing on the fact that what did happen to the Potters can definitely be blamed on Snape. Voldemort never goes after them if Snape doesn't tell him about the prophecy.

    Quote sailorlum ()
    Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
    No. I don't think Snape worked to maintain it at all. Per their courtyard argument in Prince's Tale, I think it is very apparent that Lily was willing to let her bond with Severus impair her other friendships, while Severus was willing to let his other friendships ruin his bond with Lily. She was willing to stay with him even when the rest of her peers judged her for it, while he insisted on staying with other peers even when she judged him for it. Why he took her presence as a given I have no idea, but spending all his time with prospective Death Eaters is hardly Snape "working to maintain the friendship." Maybe in his own way he was trying to maintain it by trying to get her to distrust James Potter, but really that's less of "working to maintain a friendship" and more of Snape attempting to eliminate what he sees as a potential threat.

    Quote sailorlum ()
    How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
    Honestly I don't think this can be realistically answered. If Snape saves their friendship, then Snape isn't Snape; he's a totally different guy, since in order to save their friendship, he'd need to ditch the Death Eaters for a different peer group and drop all the Dark Magic stuff. And then we're talking about a Snape who practices totally different kinds of magic and surrounds himself with a totally different peer group.. it might seem like a cop-out answer but really I just don't think you can answer this. Not the kind of hypothetical scenario I think there is really even a basis to speculate on, because when we're altering Snape's actions we're altering Snape. It's like asking "How would Tom Riddle's life had been different if he hadn't sought out information on Horcruxes?" -- well, if he hadn't done that, then he wouldn't have been Tom Riddle, so who knows.

    Quote sailorlum ()
    Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
    "Murder" of Dumbledore was a necessary mercy killing that I don't see how anyone could fault. The alternative would consist of irreparably damaging Draco's soul via the punishment he'd receive as a failure to follow through on his obligation, Severus dying because of the Unbreakable Vow he made, and Dumbledore dying from the curse in a few months anyway.

    The treatment of Sirius in book five is horrid. In book three, it is definitely understandable; he didn't know Pettigrew was the rat, so of course he wanted to see the man he believed betrayed Lily thrown back to the dementors where he belonged. But by the time of book five, he knew Sirius hadn't actually been responsible for Lily's death -- he knew Sirius had suffered for over a decade as a consequence of Lily's death -- but he still treated him like rubbish. His treatment of Sirius has nothing to do with his love for Lily.. well, not nothing, because I'm sure it was largely based in his rage at the audacity Sirius had to be friends with the person who Lily fell in love with after Severus put himself out of her life, and hell, that's actually less respectable than what you think he's mad about on the first read. If he had just hated Sirius because he couldn't get over the fact that Sirius was a douche at age fifteen, that'd still be really petty and immature, but at least he'd still be hating Sirius for something Sirius actually did wrong at some point in his life; he hated Sirius due to the latter's affiliation with the man Lily married, and then chose to act maliciously on it to everyone's detriment, and... that is so ridiculously self-absorbed that I can't even begin to process it.

    Quote sailorlum ()
    What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
    His biggest is his ability to incite endless disagreements on Internet boards. His most glaring flaw is his nose.


    “I see a light in the kitchen. Let us not deprive Molly any longer of the chance to de­plore how thin you are.”
     
    sailorlumDate: Saturday, 2014-02-01, 01:38 | Message # 3
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    Thanks and thanks for all the answers! :)

    I'm gonna start with the last three answers...

    Quote NotMyDaughter ()
    Quote sailorlum ()"How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?"

    Honestly I don't think this can be realistically answered. If Snape saves their friendship, then Snape isn't Snape; he's a totally different guy, since in order to save their friendship, he'd need to ditch the Death Eaters for a different peer group and drop all the Dark Magic stuff. And then we're talking about a Snape who practices totally different kinds of magic and surrounds himself with a totally different peer group.. it might seem like a cop-out answer but really I just don't think you can answer this. Not the kind of hypothetical scenario I think there is really even a basis to speculate on, because when we're altering Snape's actions we're altering Snape. It's like asking "How would Tom Riddle's life had been different if he hadn't sought out information on Horcruxes?" -- well, if he hadn't done that, then he wouldn't have been Tom Riddle, so who knows.

    Well, I'd say he wouldn't be the same Snape, but he'd still be Snape, just a different version of Snape (it's not like 100% of everything about him would have to change, and his past would still be a part of him).

    And all the characters become different versions of themselves as they gain character growth (as we do as people in real life - 5 year old me isn't the same as 35 year old me but both are me). And there are already lots of different versions of Snape contained within canon, after all (child Snape, teen Snape, loyal DE Snape, Professor Snape, etc.)

    So, the question is really asking "What kind of Snape would Snape be and how would that version of Snape's life be different from canon Snape's life", IMO (would he be happier, find a way to be as great as he wants to be without selling his soul, would Lily fall in love him, would he learn t be happy even if Lily didn't fall in love with him, stuff like that)?

    Quote NotMyDaughter ()
    His treatment of Sirius has nothing to do with his love for Lily.. well, not nothing, because I'm sure it was largely based in his rage at the audacity Sirius had to be friends with the person who Lily fell in love with after Severus put himself out of her life, and hell, that's actually less respectable than what you think he's mad about on the first read. If he had just hated Sirius because he couldn't get over the fact that Sirius was a douche at age fifteen, that'd still be really petty and immature, but at least he'd still be hating Sirius for something Sirius actually did wrong at some point in his life; he hated Sirius due to the latter's affiliation with the man Lily married, and then chose to act maliciously on it to everyone's detriment, and... that is so ridiculously self-absorbed that I can't even begin to process it.

    Well, Sirius did bully Snape with James (Pottermore made that canon in Lupin's backstory section), so I think Snape was still holding a grudge over the bullying till the end of his days. A more reasonable person might have figured that Sirius had suffered enough with having gone to Azkaban for a crime he didn't commit and losing his very best friend and whatnot, but not Snape, IMO. And likewise, it wasn't just jealousy over Lily that had Snape hating James (although that definitely added much fuel to the fire), IMO. Granted, I think even if Sirius hadn't participated in the bullying, being friends with James would have been enough for Snape to hold a grudge and be vindictive, based on how Snape treated Lupin. So, I guess the net result is pretty much the same, but it's more complex. whistle

    Quote NotMyDaughter ()
    Quote sailorlum ()"What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
    "

    His biggest is his ability to incite endless disagreements on Internet boards. His most glaring flaw is his nose.

    LOL  rofl

    I don't have a problem with his nose, myself. I rather like it, it gives him character. But that's me.   ;)

    I'll respond to more tomorrow (or later tonight, if I have time). ;)
     
    sjcuk13Date: Saturday, 2014-02-01, 23:50 | Message # 4
    Second Year
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    As a character I love Snape. If he was a person he would be a thoroughly unlikable person. Yes he was working for the "good" side and yes he had to keep up appearances especially for Malfoy and his gang, but he did not have to bully anyone and everyone at any opportunity that was presented. The better option all round would be to completely ignore Harry and his gang if he couldn't be civil to them.

    Considering he was an amazing actor, someone who could fool not just Voldemort but everyone else in Voldemort's inner-circle, (most of whom would have loved an excuse to snitch on him) he didn't have enough restraint to keep his mouth shut around Harry. Even if he had that much resentment for James that he could not keep his mouth shut around Harry why did that mean he had to bully everyone else including Ron, Hermione and Nevill. For someone who was mean to hate Belatrix and everything that she stood for (that's how it came off when I read it) he seamed to hate her victim, someone who Snape should have had at least a little sympathy for, but Snape seamed to hate Nevill with as much if not more venom than he showed with Beletrix.

    I will leave it there for now I will apologize for the amount of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors I have red through this a few times but I am sure I will have missed a lot.
     
    ccollinsmithDate: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 06:04 | Message # 5
    First Year
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    The intensity of Severus' hatred for Sirius mostly has to do with his belief that Sirius got away with attempted murder.

    I don't think Snape ever stopped believing that Sirius tried to get him killed him in the werewolf prank, and I'm not sure that Sirius ever did anything to disabuse Snape of that notion.

    In the Shrieking Shack, in fact, Snape overhears Sirius say that Snape would have deserved to be killed by the werewolf... simply for the crime of following the Marauders around. 

    Maybe Snape was horrible to Sirius, but Sirius was no better to Snape. I think it's a draw.


    THE GLITTELUTION WILL NEVER DIE!
    viva la glittelution!
     
    ccollinsmithDate: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 06:22 | Message # 6
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    BTW, I've answered the old Legilimency Studies question too many times to answer them again, so I'm just going to do some of the fun questions:

    If Snape ever listens to Muggle music, what do you think his favorite band(s) or style(s) of music is/would be?

    Snape is totally a punk rocker. In fact, he went into a punk club not far from Spinner's End right after Dumbledore told him Lily died and started a fight in order to get the snot knocked out of him so he wouldn't have to think or feel. It's all there in my fanfic, so you know it must be true!

    If Snape ever plays Muggle video games and/or pinball, what do you think his favorite one(s) or genre(s) are?

    This is the who guy invented the Logic Puzzle in Book 1, right? He's obviously into Mystery/Puzzle games... you know, like Myst and Riven and The Room and The Room Two. That's Snape's style. Unfortunately, the electronics just keep going on the fritz.

    If Snape were on a plane, how would he react/what would he think of air travel?

    Hmmm. Snapes on a Plane.

    I think that's as far as I would like to go with this question. ;)


    If Snape played Monopoly, what token would he pick?

    He'd play Wizards Monopoly, and his token would be the great Slytherin, Merlin.


    THE GLITTELUTION WILL NEVER DIE!
    viva la glittelution!


    Message edited by ccollinsmith - Sunday, 2014-02-02, 06:25
     
    NotMyDaughterDate: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 07:17 | Message # 7
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    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    Snape seamed to hate Nevill with as much if not more venom than he showed with Beletrix.
    Haven't read all the thread yet but I will say now re: Snape's treatment of Neville -- I saw someone interpret once that Snape probably loathed Neville so much because if Voldemort had taken the prophecy to refer to Neville instead of Harry, then Lily would still be alive. So basically he hates Neville for living instead of Lily.. which of course is not necessarily the best reasoning, but that likely exists as some reasoning, and I think it is interesting and not something I ever thought of myself!


    “I see a light in the kitchen. Let us not deprive Molly any longer of the chance to de­plore how thin you are.”
     
    sjcuk13Date: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 18:56 | Message # 8
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    NotMyDaughter: I would never have though of that myself ether. However my resigning still stands why take it out on a person who was too young to have any blame.

    IF (and it is a big if) Snape did regret reporting to Voldemort that night then her has no to blame but himself. He was the one who deliver the message in such a way that it was Harry of the two that was picked. I would love to know if Voldemort even ever considered that their could have been another other than Harry, Assuming that he wouldn't condescend to discuss something this important with his followers. If Snape loved Lilly that badly he would have:
    1) Let her be happy however SHE wanted not the in the way Snape thought she SHOULD be happy.
    2) Told Voldemort something else .... anything else ... nothing at all or while telling Voldemort put the idea of the Longbottoms into his head.
     
    sailorlumDate: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 19:25 | Message # 9
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    To continue replying from yesterday...

    Quote NotMyDaughter ()
    Quote sailorlum ()"Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?"

    No. I don't think Snape worked to maintain it at all. Per their courtyard argument in Prince's Tale, I think it is very apparent that Lily was willing to let her bond with Severus impair her other friendships, while Severus was willing to let his other friendships ruin his bond with Lily. She was willing to stay with him even when the rest of her peers judged her for it, while he insisted on staying with other peers even when she judged him for it. Why he took her presence as a given I have no idea, but spending all his time with prospective Death Eaters is hardly Snape "working to maintain the friendship." Maybe in his own way he was trying to maintain it by trying to get her to distrust James Potter, but really that's less of "working to maintain a friendship" and more of Snape attempting to eliminate what he sees as a potential threat.

    I wouldn't say that Snape did no work to maintain it, at all, seeing as Snape's DE wannabe/blood purist friends must not have liked him hanging round Lily (a Muggle-born) and likely gave him static about it, IMO. And Snape was asking Lily why they weren't hanging out as much, which was opening the lines of communication, so that's something, too, I think.

    Unfortunately, Snape didn't heed the answers he was given, and was in denial (IMO) about needing to chose Lily over his DE wannabe/blood purist friends and bad path he was heading down with them. I think that's why JKR said that Snape didn't understand Lily's aversion, because he was in denial, because, as JKR said, Snape wanted both Lily and Mulicber [et al.] and wanted to be part of something big and powerful. I think Snape's desire "to be part of something big and powerful" blinded him to reasoning from Lily that he would have otherwise understood (and his own conscience). I think if he'd allowed himself to think some things through instead of ignoring and sticking his head in the sand, he would have made some better choices and chosen Lily and a better path, before it was too late to save the relationship. Alas, it took Lily being targeted by Voldemort directly, before he got his priorities in order enough to turn from the DE path.

    And while I think Snape was worried that he would lose Lily to James, Lily wasn't even friends with James at this point, and Lily wasn't using James's mistrust of Snape as part of her argument as to why they weren't hanging out as much (it sounds like Lily didn't want to hang round Snape while he was with Mulciber and Avery, and Snape had been spending a lot of time with them, not giving her as much opportunity to spend time with Snape, IMO).

    Having said that, I think Snape's priorities were seriously messed up, and thus he didn't do enough to maintain the friendship, and he was like a dog with two bones, in denial that he couldn't have them both at the same time, in the long run.

    I'll reply to another answer further up, tomorrow, or later today if I have the energy. ;)

    Now for today's replies... :)

    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    As a character I love Snape. If he was a person he would be a thoroughly unlikable person. Yes he was working for the "good" side and yes he had to keep up appearances especially for Malfoy and his gang, but he did not have to bully anyone and everyone at any opportunity that was presented. The better option all round would be to completely ignore Harry and his gang if he couldn't be civil to them.

    I pretty much agree totally (although since Snape's fictional, I feel like I can still like him as "a person" since I don't have to deal with him in real life, so all I need to do is be able to forgive him his flaws, whereas if I couldn't forgive, I'd still like his character for being interesting but wouldn't like him as a person.)

    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    Considering he was an amazing actor, someone who could fool not just Voldemort but everyone else in Voldemort's inner-circle, (most of whom would have loved an excuse to snitch on him) he didn't have enough restraint to keep his mouth shut around Harry. Even if he had that much resentment for James that he could not keep his mouth shut around Harry why did that mean he had to bully everyone else including Ron, Hermione and Nevill. For someone who was mean to hate Belatrix and everything that she stood for (that's how it came off when I read it) he seamed to hate her victim, someone who Snape should have had at least a little sympathy for, but Snape seamed to hate Nevill with as much if not more venom than he showed with Beletrix.

    I think Snape just had his priorities messed up, when it came to hating people, prizing some petty reasoning over the big picture, a good deal of the time with many/most people. And I think it's clear that with his great talent for Occulmency, Snape could have restrained himself more regarding even Harry, he just chose to indulge his grudge and not restrain himself more (I think Snape wanted to beat the snot out of Harry after he looked in his Pensieve in OotP, and did restrain himself from doing that much, at least).

    With regard to Neville vs. Bellatrix, in Snape's hate-a-thon, I think Snape just had more room to indulge his hatred of Neville, since he was in a greater power position over Neville, than he was with Bellatrix.

    Quote ccollinsmith ()
    The intensity of Severus' hatred for Sirius mostly has to do with his belief that Sirius got away with attempted murder.

    I agree with this, up until after Snape finds out Pettigrew is really alive, then I think the intensity level is decreased a bit, from Snape now just hating Sirius because of the bullying and whatnot. Strike that, I missed the word "attempted", in this sentence, and thought you were talking about how Snape thought Sirius betrayed the Potters and killed a bunch of Muggles and Pettigrew (getting away with doing murder, ugh I guess I read "getting away with" as "doing" - brain fart), and that leading to the increased intensity (which I think we both agree was a factor in the Shack and pre Snape finding out Wormtail was really alive, IIRC).

    Yeah, I definitely think that Snape believing that Sirius really tried to murder him with the prank (ETA: and getting away with it without proper punishment), fueled the fire of hatred already there from the bullying Sirius did with James.

    Quote ccollinsmith ()
    I don't think Snape ever stopped believing that Sirius tried to get him killed him in the werewolf prank, and I'm not sure that Sirius ever did anything to disabuse Snape of that notion.

    In the Shrieking Shack, in fact, Snape overhears Sirius say that Snape would have deserved to be killed by the werewolf... simply for the crime of following the Marauders around.

    I totally agree here. Sirius so did not help his case, at all, regarding the prank.

    Quote ccollinsmith ()
    Snape is totally a punk rocker.

    I see Snape as being into punk, as well. :) I also figure that he'd like metal, if we are talking the 70s/80s. And I think he'd like glam rock, since it was similar to punk.

    Quote ccollinsmith ()
    This is the who guy invented the Logic Puzzle in Book 1, right? He's obviously into Mystery/Puzzle games... you know, like Myst and Riven and The Room and The Room Two. That's Snape's style.

    I can totally see that. nod I think he'd also like horror games (like Splatter House and Resident Evil) and some fighting games (like Mortal Kombat and Dark Stalkers). And I think he'd probably like Big Buck Hunter Pro...


    Fan art by julvett

    lol

    Also, I can see Snape playing pinball with Lily, during summer holidays, at a local arcade, and liking it.

    Quote ccollinsmith ()
    Hmmm. Snapes on a Plane.

    I think that's as far as I would like to go with this question. ;)

    Hee hee, you got the in joke! lol

    Quote ccollinsmith ()
    He'd play Wizards Monopoly, and his token would be the great Slytherin, Merlin.

    Ah, I could totally see that, assuming there's a Wizards Monopoly. nod

    If we are talking regular Monopoly, I figure he'd take the Cannon or the Battleship.

    Quote NotMyDaughter ()
    Haven't read all the thread yet but I will say now re: Snape's treatment of Neville -- I saw someone interpret once that Snape probably loathed Neville so much because if Voldemort had taken the prophecy to refer to Neville instead of Harry, then Lily would still be alive. So basically he hates Neville for living instead of Lily.. which of course is not necessarily the best reasoning, but that likely exists as some reasoning, and I think it is interesting and not something I ever thought of myself!

    I thought that was a theory that was going to pan out as being made canon, by the end of the series, but that didn't happen, so now I'm in doubt (although it's still a possible factor). I think given Snape's personality, it would be enough for him to treat Neville as badly as he did just because Neville was 1) bad at Potions, 2) a friend of Harry, and 3) a Gryffindor, all combined. And then the boggart incident added fuel to the fire, although a more reasonable person might have been given pause by the fact that they had scared someone so badly they were their boggart, esp. someone like Neville who had enough tragedy in his life to fuel some really nasty boggarts.


    Message edited by sailorlum - Sunday, 2014-02-02, 20:01
     
    sjcuk13Date: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 20:52 | Message # 10
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    Quote sailorlum ()
    Snape could have restrained himself more regarding even Harry, he just chose to indulge his grudge and not restrain himself more (I think Snape wanted to beat the snot out of Harry after he looked in his Pensieve in OotP, and did restrain himself from doing that much, at least).

    This is my point he can control himself he just chooses not to. Why just not pretend that Harry didn't exist to begin with?
     
    ccollinsmithDate: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 22:16 | Message # 11
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    Regarding the "Snape was angry with Neville because if Voldemort had targeted Neville instead of Harry, then Lily would not have died" theory...

    Please show the textual evidence indicating that Snape actually held this opinion. I have never been able to find it.


    THE GLITTELUTION WILL NEVER DIE!
    viva la glittelution!
     
    sailorlumDate: Sunday, 2014-02-02, 23:11 | Message # 12
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    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    This is my point he can control himself he just chooses not to. Why just not pretend that Harry didn't exist to begin with?

    Ah, I see. nod I'm just having a brain farty day, with reading comp, today. yuhup

    You know, it's funny, Snape did pretend that Harry didn't exist after the Pensieve incident, for a while, in OotP (I remember poor Harry being relieved at the change). And Snape was more ticked off at Harry than he'd ever been, so I wonder if Snape had enough character growth, at that point, to realize that if he didn't reign himself in, he'd lose total control and do something even he thought would go to far, against Harry (like start hitting him, or something).

    Added (2014-02-02, 23:11)
    ---------------------------------------------

    Quote ccollinsmith ()
    Regarding the "Snape was angry with Neville because if Voldemort had targeted Neville instead of Harry, then Lily would not have died" theory...

    Please show the textual evidence indicating that Snape actually held this opinion. I have never been able to find it.

    Now that I think about it, since I read DH first (after seeing the HBP movie and only saw the movies up to that point), it's more like I thought I'd find enough evidence in support of that theory in earlier books to make it something I'd argue could be taken as canon, but I didn't.

    I haven't been able to find any solid evidence that Snape even knew Voldemort considered anyone other than Harry for the Prophecy. (The Longbottoms were tortured because they were top level Aurors, and Bellatrix and crew thought they had something to do with Voldemort's disappearance, or knew something about it.)

    I know from earlier debates, that some people think that Voldemort would have told Snape who he was considering for the Prophecy (which I think is possible, but not so likely I think he necessarily did, IMO). Or they think that Snape would bother to know, or happen to know, Neville's exact birthday, and put two and two together, either because they think he researched it on his own (which is possible, but also not something I think is necessarily true) or because he just happened to know Neville's birthday was the same as Harry's (which I find unlikely, although still technically possible).

    So, basically, the evidence for it is deductive (like people think it likely Snape would be in on Neville being considered or be aware of his birthday, and from that, put two and two together).

    For my headcanon, I've gone with "Snape didn't know Neville was even considered, and remained unaware of his birthday", just to simple things up on the angst meter, since there's plenty of complex angst regarding Snape and Neville, respectively, already, and since I think it could go either way. On a whim, I went with less complex angst. :p
     
    sjcuk13Date: Monday, 2014-02-03, 00:08 | Message # 13
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    Quote sailorlum ()
    You know, it's funny, Snape did pretend that Harry didn't exist after the Pensieve incident, for a while, in OotP (I remember poor Harry being relieved at the change). And Snape was more ticked off at Harry than he'd ever been, so I wonder if Snape had enough character growth, at that point, to realize that if he didn't reign himself in, he'd lose total control and do something even he thought would go to far, against Harry (like start hitting him, or something).

    At the risk of arguing with myself on this point. In OotP when Harry had looked into the pensieve Snape did ignore Harry and Harry did find this easier to work with, however at the end of the lesson Snape wrecked Harry's work that lesson causing him to get no marks for that day (as the Hogwarts exam system all seam to be based on what you do on the day of the exam its self I don't see the problem - but that is another discussion) However at the end of PS/SS  (apparently not) PoA (UK hardback page 313) there is a bit that says:
    Quote
    The exam results came out the last day of term. Harry Ron and Hermione had passed ever subject. Harry was amazed that he had got through potions. He had a shrewd suspicion that Dumbledor had stepped in to stop Snape failing him on purpose.


    This leads me back onto the discussion about School but if this was in PoA what was Snape feeling in OotP? I wonder how much influence the teachers have over the final exam marks?
    I think that there is a bit in HBP where Snape says he is keeping Crabb and Goyle extra hours to pass their OWL's potions so presumable not that much.
    Anyway back to my point. How many underhanded or behind the scenes things did Snape do to Harry that we never see?
     
    ArryGrotterDate: Monday, 2014-02-03, 00:31 | Message # 14
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    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    This leads me back onto the discussion about School but if this was in PoA what was Snape feeling in OotP? I wonder how much influence the teachers have over the final exam marks?
    I think that there is a bit in HBP where Snape says he is keeping Crabb and Goyle extra hours to pass their OWL's potions so presumable not that much.

    This is getting a tiny bit off topic, but I would expect that the first four years' exam results (and the sixth? I'm not sure if there are sixth year exams or not) are easily skewed by the teacher. OWLs and NEWTs are externally assessed, so Snape wouldn't have been able to pass Crabbe and Goyle himself, hence the extra lessons.
     
    sailorlumDate: Monday, 2014-02-03, 03:22 | Message # 15
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    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    This leads me back onto the discussion about School but if this was in PoA what was Snape feeling in OotP? I wonder how much influence the teachers have over the final exam marks?I think that there is a bit in HBP where Snape says he is keeping Crabb and Goyle extra hours to pass their OWL's potions so presumable not that much.

    I think for regular final exams, the teachers have some influence, since they are the ones giving them (that's the impression I get, anyway) but for the OWLs and NEWTs, they have no influence on the exam itself, since it's given by other professors.

    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    Anyway back to my point. How many underhanded or behind the scenes things did Snape do to Harry that we never see?

    That's a good question. Maybe only what was mentioned in the text, or maybe more. I get the impression from the text that it's Snape's emotional abuse towards Harry that was Harry's main problem in potions, rather than things like the vial breaking incident, or Snape's grading behind the scenes. Although, I wonder if that's only because Snape's emotional abuse was usually so effective in distracting Harry from doing well, since the first time Snape ignores him during potions class, Harry feels he's not having a hard time with potion making and makes something pretty good, and his work winds up on the floor after handing it in to Snape. That is suspicious, IMO.


    Message edited by sailorlum - Monday, 2014-02-03, 03:23
     
    xhanax315Date: Tuesday, 2014-02-04, 05:07 | Message # 16
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    I've always been a lurker when it comes to the Snape threads simply because everyone usually ignores what I have to say anyhow, but I'll answer a few here now.

    Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
    I really do t think he would have. I like to think of him as being like Little Finger from A Song of Ice and. Fire, who loved Catelyn Stark his entire life and continued to help her when all the trouble began with Ned. Although I don't know whether that was for his own best interests or Catelyn's. I do think that he still would've turned to the good side as well if Lily had lived, simply because Lily was opposing the Death Eater crowd that Snape began hanging around with.

    Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
    Probably because he didn't think he was nearly up to standards with Lily until he saw her show signs of being magical. We see how they both came from completely opposite families, his being not nearly as comfortable and his parents apparently having problems, whereas Lily seem to have the perfect life. I don't think he'd have approached her if she wasn't magical, look at the way he shunned Petunia when ever she came around. Lilly's magical properties gave them something in common, and Snape was able to be her teacher and give her guidance about the magical world at the time.
    How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
    This is one of Snape's many flaws, there really wasn't no reason for him to treat Harry and Neville the way he did. I can understand that it pained him to look Harry in the eyes every day, but that isn't an excuse. As for Neville, he was extremely cruel to a boy who didn't deserve that sort of treatment. As for Snape loathing him because of him living whereas Lily could've, I've never really thought about it this way. But we're never given any evidence to suggest that.
    Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
    His abuse towards Neville and Harry definitely, the fact that throughout the entire series we thought he was with the ark side and in the end he really was trying to save Harry even though he clearly hated the boy. I also think his holding a grudge for so long with Sirius and James really set him off. As for Snape and Sirius's relationship, I think both should be held accountable for their actions. When they met in GoF, they should've followed Dumbledore's instructions and put all thier differences behind them. One o them might even still be alive because of it.

    I like to think that Snape is a tragic hero in his own right, he really did go through a lot in the series, and he suffered for it too in the end.


    Message edited by xhanax315 - Tuesday, 2014-02-04, 05:09
     
    sjcuk13Date: Tuesday, 2014-02-04, 12:44 | Message # 17
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    Quote xhanax315 ()
    How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series? This is one of Snape's many flaws, there really wasn't no reason for him to treat Harry and Neville the way he did. I can understand that it pained him to look Harry in the eyes every day, but that isn't an excuse. As for Neville, he was extremely cruel to a boy who didn't deserve that sort of treatment. As for Snape loathing him because of him living whereas Lily could've, I've never really thought about it this way. But we're never given any evidence to suggest that.

    Nods head  yes I agree with you there .... nothing more to add  lol

    Quote xhanax315 ()
    Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series? His abuse towards Neville and Harry definitely, the fact that throughout the entire series we thought he was with the ark side and in the end he really was trying to save Harry even though he clearly hated the boy. I also think his holding a grudge for so long with Sirius and James really set him off. As for Snape and Sirius's relationship, I think both should be held accountable for their actions. When they met in GoF, they should've followed Dumbledore's instructions and put all thier differences behind them. One o them might even still be alive because of it.


    This has made me think I do wonder what the conversation was like when Snape checked where Sirius was. so many ideas now running through my head ... sigh .... I guess we will never now

    Quote xhanax315 ()
    I like to think that Snape is a tragic hero in his own right, he really did go through a lot in the series, and he suffered for it too in the end.
    The Thing with this is amount of stuff he had to put up with the majority was his own fault. if her didn't try so hard to make himself into a totally unlikable person he would have had some friends to turn to in the end.
    Thinking about it that would have been a good lesson for Harry to see if you don't have friends then you must carry the weight of the world by yourself.
     
    sailorlumDate: Wednesday, 2014-02-05, 01:52 | Message # 18
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    Quote xhanax315 ()
    Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?I really do t think he would have. ... I do think that he still would've turned to the good side as well if Lily had lived, simply because Lily was opposing the Death Eater crowd that Snape began hanging around with.

    I agree, I don't see Snape moving on, in canon. I see him as a Lily-sexual, in my headcanon for canon, actually, LOL. It's Lily or no one!  lol

    Something I forgot about the second question was, that it doesn't take into account that Snape actually did his Heel Face Turn when Lily was "merely" directly targeted for death (certainly according to Harry's big take that speech to Voldemort, which I think we are meant to see as accurate). Granted, one may wonder how long Snape would have continued on that path, if Lily hadn't died. I definitely see him carrying on till Voldemort is defeated, to insure Lily's safety, if nothing else. But, I think, like in canon, with him carrying on to protect Harry for Lily, that the quest would inspire enough character growth that he'd carry on fighting for the good side because he would have at least have developed enough positive character growth to want to save lives if he could.

    Quote sjcuk13 ()
    Probably because he didn't think he was nearly up to standards with Lily until he saw her show signs of being magical. We see how they both came from completely opposite families, his being not nearly as comfortable and his parents apparently having problems, whereas Lily seem to have the perfect life. I don't think he'd have approached her if she wasn't magical, look at the way he shunned Petunia when ever she came around. Lilly's magical properties gave them something in common, and Snape was able to be her teacher and give her guidance about the magical world at the time.

    I think Snape would have wanted to play with Lily, because she seemed nice and fun (eta: and I think this is what brought her to his attention in the first place), but would have felt like he couldn't, if she were Muggle. And while Snape clearly had anti-Muggle prejudice, since it was the first thing he trotted out to diss Petunia with, Petunia was also mean and disdainful of Snape, first, so who knows if he would have decided to get over the anti-Muggle prejudice against Petunia, after spending time with Lily and Petunia, if Petunia had been nice to him, IMO.

    Quote xhanax315 ()
    As for Snape and Sirius's relationship, I think both should be held accountable for their actions. When they met in GoF, they should've followed Dumbledore's instructions and put all thier differences behind them. One o them might even still be alive because of it.

    Totally agree, here. It would have been best if they'd let all the grudges go, no matter how big or small, at this point.

    Oh, great, now I want to write fic where Dumbledore sends them on a retreat together, and they are forced to do trust building exercises. I think it would be hilarious disaster.  lol (I think they'd need to do some work on themselves, with one on one counseling, maybe, before trust building with each other even had a shot of working.)


    Message edited by sailorlum - Wednesday, 2014-02-05, 01:55
     
    assasin504Date: Monday, 2015-09-14, 09:59 | Message # 19
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    After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

    He isn't responsible for their death. Peter and Voldemort are. He tried to save them, and risked his life to do so. He went to Dumbledore knowing full well he could very well be killed to deliver the warning. Imo, even if he did make a grave mistake by telling Voldemort about the prophecy, he more than made up for it with his later actions.

    Even if Snape hadn't told the prophecy, the Potters would still be in danger (and perhaps greater, for they would be unprotected) since they were actively working against Voldemort and had already defied him thrice..

    Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete? 

    More than complete, I'd say  lol

    To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility? 

    To a large extent, every person's action ARE his own responsibility. Even so, his home life and the negative interactions he had with muggles were the reasons he came to hate muggles. These things did make him more susceptible to Voldemort's propaganda.

    Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case? 
    Yes. Since Lily still worked in the Order of Phoenix and was still in danger, sooner or later, she would fall in danger again and Snape would change side. Again. 

    Also yeah. I do think he would move on, if he finds someone who loved him. That is why he loved Lily, didn't he? Because she was the only one to offer him her friendship? Plus, he wouldn't have the guilt of getting her killed bogging him down, so it'll be much easier.

    Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical? 
    No. He wouldn't be interested in the least if she wasn't magical. Imo, he was reluctant to approach her because of his negative interactions with muggle children so far. Petunia's dialogue in that chapter does suggest that he was infamous in the neighbourhood lol

    How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship? 
    The distance between them in Hogwarts and the different companies they had certainly changed their relationship for the worst. Lily's friends disliked Snape and his friends disliked Lily and her kind. Even so, their friendship was strong enough to weather the test of time, and this was due to efforts on both their parts. Otherwise, given what we see in the courtyard scene and SWM, it simply wouldn't last this long.

    How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
    He realize his folly much earlier than in canon. If they were still friends, Snape's view and understanding of Voldemort's dream could be much different.

    Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the revelation?

    I disagree with this. I think Lily's love inspired the change in him, spurred him on to redeem himself. The rest were the actions of the changed Severus, because in his heart, he wanted to do the right thing, whether it was or was not related to Lily. Like that time he saved Remus when he was specifically instructed not to.

    , his treatment of Sirius? 
    What?? Wasn't that a mutual thing? What about the time when Sirius tried to kill Snape and didn't express any remorse over it? Or when he hit an already wounded Severus' head on the roof where Severus carried him back on a stretcher? I sincerely don't think there's any rethinking needed here.

    How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series? 
    No impact. Harry was a serious ass who broke rules, disrespected authority figures, put himself and the others in danger, never even tried in Potins, hurt a teacher, saw the said teachers personal memories, was suspicious of the same teacher and regularly spoke ill of the same teacher. I admit Snape was predisposed to dislike Harry, but it was Harry's actions that made Snape truly hate him.

    As for the treatment, they are in an archaic world. I've never and would never judge that world by the rules of my own.

    As for Neville- Imo, Snape hated Neville because he was inept at potions, a highly volatile and dangerous subject that Snape himself was excellent at. If he really hated Neville because he wasn't the chosen one, why would he forget that and treat Neville well in HBP, when he taught Neville a subject he was actually good at?

    Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level? 
    I don't think he gave a damn about Harry's opinion. Neither did he 'love' Harry, imo.

    Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews? 
    Yes. She's basically correct, though I disagree with the oversimplifications her words are used to derive

    Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series? 
    You have to read really deeply and see the picture at the same time. There are numerous possible reasons for his actions, and often two or more are tru for the given situation. To understand everything well, one need to think too much, and seriously, only a few have the time or conviction to do that.

    What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

    Loyalty, love, bravery, cunning, intelligence, conviction are his strengths. Tendency to hold grudges, a bitter nature, lack of patience, uncontrolled anger, insecurity (as a kid) are his flaws.

    If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them? 

    An intellligent and tortured man who was seemingly incapable of love, but who sacrificed everything for protecting the legacy of hs loved one.

    What do you reckon Snape valued most in life? 

    Hard to say. He had little in his life that he coud value. But if you mean what he wanted most, the answer is Lily's forgiveness.
     
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